Chatting with Slade Grayson, supervillain novelist

by Mike Rhode

Slade Grayson was one of the prose novelists scattered through the exhibit floor at Awesome Con last month. We chatted briefly at the end of Sunday about comic books and his superhero novel, Kill Your Heroes. I bought a copy, and really enjoyed it. I recommend it, and the following interview, to people who like their superheroes in prose.

How do you do it? Longhand, typing, dictation or a combination?

My process used to be to write longhand, then type it up and edit as a I go. I wrote my first two novels that way. Now, I tend to just type it as I go and edit later. Handwriting it first is hard; the words tend to come faster than my hand can move. And there's always that point where later, I'm struggling to decipher my handwriting. Better to just type it.

When (within a decade is fine) and where were you born?

Jersey City, New Jersey, in the year of our Lord, 1965.

Why are you around DC now? What neighborhood or area do you live in?

I live in Gaithersburg, Maryland. Many years ago, I lived in Colorado. I met someone online and we entered into a relationship. She lived in MD. I flew out to see her. She flew out to see me. We went back and forth like that until it became obvious one of us should move before we went bankrupt from spending all of our money on airfare. It was easier for me to move, so I came out here. Unfortunately, the relationship didn't last, but I have a son now, so... No regrets.

What is your training and/or education in novel writing?

A hodgepodge of creative writing classes, English and literature courses, and working as a freelance journalist many years ago, which taught me about how to get ideas across in a very small amount of space. And lots and lots of reading from a very young age.

What type of writing about comics do you do?

Not much, these days. Years ago, I would write reviews of comic books for an online site. But then they wanted clickbait style stuff, like "Top 5" lists, and that wasn't something that interested me.  

Who are your influences?

My top 5, in no particular order: Lucius Shepard, Alan Moore, Elmore Leonard, Shirley Jackson, and Richard Matheson. To a lesser extent, Harlan Ellison, Raymond Chandler, and Robert E. Howard. The first five taught me about story, dialogue, and plot structure, as well as writing voice. The last three taught me stories can have an energy to them that practically crackles off the page if you do it right.

If you could, what in your career would you do-over or change?

This is a weird one, but... I had the opportunity to go to film school when I was much younger, and for various reasons, I passed on it. At the time, I told myself it was the right decision because I knew I wanted to be a writer more than a filmmaker. But now I wish I had done it. Maybe I wouldn't have become a successful director, but it would've gotten me experience in screenwriting and possibly working in that field. I have ideas now for movies and TV series, and of course the daydream that one of my novels might get adapted into a film or series. If I had pursued it, I could have made contacts in the film and TV world that could help me get my foot in the door with some of the ideas I have. Or, who knows? Maybe I would have become a successful director and I'd be bringing my ideas to life on film rather than in prose form.

What work are you best-known for?

I'm best known for my last novel, Kill Your Heroes. It's been my most successful book, so far.

What work are you most proud of?

This is a tough one. I'm very proud of Kill Your Heroes. I really wrote that book primarily for myself. The whole time I was writing it, there was a voice in my head that kept saying, "No one's going to get this. You're wasting your time. This book is going to come out and flop immediately." I thought this partially because a few years ago, after my book Autumn Moon was accepted by a publisher, he asked me about possibly writing a follow-up to that (which I did), but also wanted more horror stories in general. I pitched him a superhero horror story and he said, "Superheroes don't sell," and wanted me to change my pitch and make it just a horror story (I respectfully declined).

This was at the height of the MCU, so I was surprised he said that, but he was saying superhero movies sell, but superhero books don't. Well...he was wrong! There's a large community of readers out there that love superhero novels.

But if we're talking about "most proud of," it would have to be Autumn Moon. It's a huge cast and many subplots, and I worked hard to tie them all together. I think it's not only a really good werewolf book, but just a good book in general. It surprises me still that it's not my most successful novel. But I think there's not enough horror in it for the horror crowd, and too many werewolves for the literary crowd.

And now, some questions specific to your book, Kill Your Heroes:

You're a fiction writer, and you've turned to writing about superheroes. Can you describe that novel for us?

Kill Your Heroes is about womanizer named Eddie, who's had everything handed to him in life and never had to work for anything, decides to become a supervillain in order to attain fame. Eddie's plan is that he'll pull off some high profile, flashy crimes, tangle with the Dark Revenger, and eventually get caught (as all supervillains usually do). He figures he'll do a short sentence at a minimum security prison, write a tell-all book, and make the talk show rounds after his release.

Eddie isn't an evil person. He's just shallow and narcissistic.

One day, things take a horrible turn and the Dark Revenger is dead. It's Eddie's fault (for reasons I'd rather not spoil). Instead of owning up to it, Eddie decides to take The Dark Revenger's place. He could probably get away with it, but the world's A-List team of superheroes come to the Dark Revenger for help. Now Eddie has to keep the deception going, but it's difficult for a guy used to running his mouth and trying to charm women to play a stoic, serious superhero. Also, there's a murder mystery, and an even bigger mystery behind that, and although the Dark Revenger is known for his detective skills, Eddie's never used his brain for anything other than "How cool do I look?"

Kill Your Heroes is multilayered and has something for everyone: Several central mysteries, plenty of action, and some comedic moments of Eddie attempting (not very well) to keep the deception going. At its heart, though, it's a character arc and transformation, as Eddie grows and develops depth as a person...by pretending to be someone he isn't.

Is this the only superhero novel you've written?

So far.

Are you going to write more in this universe?

I have a follow up in the works.

How did you decide on the Dark Revenger character's powers, motivations, and backstory? He appears to be based on a grim and gritty Batman.

Many years ago, I had a group of friends who were always trying to get me involved in playing Dungeons & Dragons. But I'm not much of a fantasy fan. Magic is okay, but if there's a dragon involved or elves, my eyes tend to glaze over. They knew I was a comic fan, so they suggested Mutants & Masterminds, a superhero role-playing game. This same group of friends used to debate me over who was/is the best superhero. My pick was always Batman. Given enough prep time, I would argue, Batman could defeat anyone. This would spark some lively, but good-natured, disagreements.

I should clarify that my Batman, the one I grew up reading, was the Denny O'Neil / Neal Adams one, and later, Steve Englehart / Marshall Rogers. When I think of Batman, it's the globe-trotting master detective who solved crimes with his intellect, stuck to the shadows, and only used hand-to-hand combat when absolutely necessary. A ninja Sherlock Holmes. I'm not fond of the current versions that have him encased in a bullet-proof costume, walking into a hail of gunfire, and rage-beating people bloody with his fists. Anyway...

We all designed superheroes based on our favorites. There was a Spider-Man-type hero, an Iron Man-type, a Superman-type, and mine, a Batman-type I called "The Dark Avenger." (This was before the MCU made the Avengers household names. Back then, only comic book fans knew about them.) I was going to show my friends that my Batman-type hero could keep up with their characters who had superpowers. Problem was, I had trouble role-playing a serious character. I had a tendency to crack jokes and be snarky, something a "grim and gritty" superhero wouldn't do. That's how the character developed:

Why would a jokey guy, someone brimming with personality, want to be a dark, humorless superhero? Well, maybe he didn't start that way. Maybe he was pretending to be that person. Maybe he accidentally killed the superhero and now he's pretending to be him to cover it up.

And the story fell into place from there. The Dark Avenger became The Dark Revenger to avoid a lawsuit from Marvel, and the rest of the plot developed as I worked out "what if?" and "wouldn't it be cool if?" scenarios in my head.

Was it difficult to come up with a full set of characters?

Not really. Some came fully formed into my head as I worked out the story, while others developed from bits and pieces as I started writing. Eddie's best friend, Blue Howler, came from just the name. It popped in my head one day, and the rest was from asking myself questions:

Why's he called Blue Howler? Obviously, he must be blue, and he must have some vocal superpower. What's his costume? Maybe he doesn't wear one. If you have blue skin and hair, you don't really need a costume. Maybe he wears jeans and scuffed engineer boots because he comes from a working-class background. So, how'd he become blue and gain superpowers? What if he volunteered to be experimented on to get extra cash and this is what happened to him. Etc.

Lot of the characters came from just imagining a look or a set of powers, or thinking, "Okay, I need a big bad here for them to go up against. What would be cool if it came crashing through the wall right now?"

The villains seem loosely based on Spider-Man's rogue gallery, while the heroes seem to reflect the Justice League. Is this accurate?

I don't really see it that way. I mean, I get that if a character shows up with electricity-based powers, some readers will automatically link him to Electro from Spider-Man. But really, it's just archetypes. Yes, you could make the comparison of the Dark Revenger, Court Jester, and the Puzzler and draw a line to Batman, Joker, and the Riddler. But outside of the archetype, they're completely different. Dark Revenger is no more Batman than Moon Knight is. There are similarities - and sure, I'd be lying if I said Batman and his arch-villains weren't an inspiration. But I think it's more like the way the Seven in "The Boys" was inspired by the Justice League, or how Alan Moore wanted to use the Charlton characters for Watchmen, but when DC told him he couldn't, he made up similar characters to use instead. You could look at Homelander from "The Boys" or Omni-Man from "Invincible" and see there's a similarity to Superman. But there are many more differences than similarities. Same thing for the Watchmen characters.

I guess I'm a little defensive about the subject because I read a review where someone said the characters were a "barely repainted Justice League." I just thought: Wow, that was really dismissive of everything I did. Imagine if someone first read the Justice League and was like, "Huh. So barely repainted Greek gods." Or if when Batman first came out, some reader said, "So this is just the pulp character, the Spider, crossed with Zorro and a little bit of the Shadow." Or going up to George Lucas and saying, "So you took the movie 'High Fortress' and basically set it in outer space."

Okay, that last one isn't far off the mark. But still...

I think with superheroes, there are archetypes that go back to the old pulp characters, and even farther back into mythology. We, as creators, try to take what's been built before and add to it, or bring a new twist to it. On the one hand, with Kill Your Heroes, I was trying to tell an entertaining story. On the other, I was writing a love letter to comic books in general, especially the ones I grew up reading. You know, back when they were fun.

Your dedication of the book contains a whole list of creators, and specifically mentions Gerry Conway and the last panel of Amazing Spider-Man #144. Can you tell us why that made you become a writer? Can you say anything about the others you mentioned? It looks like you were a 1970s-1980s comic book reader.

Yep! Started reading comics in the 70s. Marvel was my thing: Claremont/Cockrum on X-Men, and then Claremont/Byrne. Bill Mantlo and Michael Golden on Micronauts. Steve Englehart's Captain America stories and his Avengers run. Stern and Byrne on Cap. Starlin on Captain Marvel. Anything with Spider-Man in it (Amazing, Spectacular, Team-Up). The whole run up to "Demon in a Bottle" in Iron Man. They call the 70s the Bronze Age, but that was my Golden Age for comics. I read very little DC Comics. Pretty much just Batman stuff, Justice League (because Batman was in it), and Legion of Superheroes because I thought it was a cool concept.

Things changed in the 80s and I started following more DC titles. DC stepped up their game and began bringing Marvel creators over, as well as imports like Alan Moore, Neil Gaiman, and Grant Morrison. I think by the late 80s, I was reading more DC titles than Marvel, and was following a bunch of independents like First Comics and Dark Horse.

I had to quit in the 90s, however. Rising costs and a dip in the quality of stories. Everything became about the artwork and the cool cover, and writing became all event-driven stories. "Let's kill Superman!" "Let's cripple Batman!" Which is fine if that's what you're going to build from, but everyone knows in comics that nothing is permanent, and everything will eventually return to the status quo.

I tried to come back a bit over the years, but man, the prices are just too crazy now for comics. And everything is written for trade collection, so why not wait for that and get the complete story? And cheaper than if you had picked up the individual issues. But also...

There's a sense of sameness now. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old dude: How many times are writers going to rehash the same stories? I keep seeing variations on Watchmen, "Days of Future Past" (from X-Men), Secret Wars, and Death of / Return of stories done over and over again. Yes, I realize there's a lot of good stuff out there. As I said, I still pick up trade collections now and then. Just giving reasons why I don't read more comics these days than the occasional trade collection. Beyond that, the characters I grew up reading have been broken down, dissected, and rebuilt so much over the years, they seem alien to me now.

Getting back to your question about how Amazing Spider-Man #144 made me want to become a writer:

When I was a kid, the death of Gwen Stacy was a huge moment in comics. It happened "on screen" so we (the reader) knew it wasn't a trick. It shaped his life and was an event that affected the tone of the comics for the next several years. So just when it seemed like Peter Parker was getting his life back on track, had come to terms with his grief, and was going to move on with a relationship with Mary Jane Watson, he opens his apartment door and Gwen Stacy is standing there. That was the last panel of that issue.

I was like, "Wait, what?! How is that possible? We saw her die!" I was 8 at the time. I realized, too, that I would have to wait 30 days for the next issue.

I thought I was going to go crazy trying to figure out A) how it was possible Gwen was alive; and B) how was that going to affect Peter's life. Up until that point, I didn't pay much attention to who wrote the comics. Didn't matter if it was Stan Lee or Roy Thomas or anyone else. They were all interchangeable to me. But I remember looking at the credit box and seeing Gerry Conway's name and thinking, "He wrote this. He made it so I really, really want to know what happens next. This person. Gerry Conway" If there had been a phone number next to his name, I probably would've called him and asked, "How is Gwen alive?!"

After that, I started paying attention to the writers' names. I realized some writers crafted stories that kept me on the edge of my seat more so than other writers. And some writers, when paired with just the right artist, could craft a classic story in a handful of pages (e.g. Archie Goodwin and Walt Simonson's Manhunter back-up series for DC).

The thing that Gerry Conway did for me was, he made me realize that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to make someone else feel the way I felt when I got to the last page of that issue. That feeling of, "Oh, man, I HAVE to know what's going to happen next."

How did you find the cover creator? Is there anything you can say about the process of the cover's design?

Jake Caleb at jcalebdesign.com had done the covers for my friend, Nick DeWolf's books, and I was a fan of his work. He has a great style, and his covers don't have a sameness to them that I see elsewhere. In fact, if you were to look at Nick's books side-by-side, all of them are eye-catching, but they're all also different. I liked that, and I liked that Jake doesn't automatically go for the "guy with a gun" or "girl with a sword" pose. He experiments and uses different colors... I think his stuff is beautiful and has a uniqueness to it.

I wanted the cover to be colorful and eye-catching, and I thought the main characters should be featured so readers could get an idea that this is a superhero story. I described the characters, using descriptions from the novel itself and sent it to him. Jake ran with it and pretty much came up with spot-on visuals. I asked him to tweak a little bit here and there, but really, it was minor stuff. Jake is a master at his craft.

SPOILER! I was trying to avoid spoilers and it was tough because you put so many twists in. I'm not completely sure the forgotten memories worked at the very end, if I may say so, but it did complete the Hero's Journey he was on. At the end, the hero wins, but at the cost of having his heroism forgotten by the world via some scientific memory altering from space, shall we say. 

 Endings are a tricky thing. It should feel open ended in a way, but also should give a definite feeling of a stopping point. Much of the story changed as I was writing it, as most of my novels do. But I always knew what the first line would be (“I’m the Dark Revenger”) and the last line (“You’re the Dark Revenger”). And I knew Eddie would sacrifice the fame and fortune he craved in order to defeat the bad guy. There was a final conversation I cut between Eddie and Master Mind, where Master Mind explains that he always has plans within plans, and he really thought Eddie would be too shallow to give up being an A-Lister. He would also say that although he never bluffs, he does lie, which would let the reader know that maybe everything wasn’t permanent. But the conversation felt tacked on, like Harrison Ford narrating Blade Runner. And I hate when authors spoon feed the readers.

What would you like to do or work on in the future?

I'd like to quit my day job and write full time. I've got a bunch of stories and characters bouncing around inside my head. If we're talking "wave a magic wand and do whatever you'd like," well, I'd like to develop a TV show. Either something based on one of my books, or something original.

I'd also like to pitch some stuff to Marvel Comics. I have some ideas for a few of their Bronze Age characters they're not doing anything with at the moment. I pitched to DC a long time ago and was making some headway with an editor, but he moved on. I don't currently know anyone at Marvel, but if anyone is reading this and knows someone that knows someone... Hey, give me a call.

What do you do when you're in a rut or have writer's block?

Jump ahead to a scene later in the book. I find that if I get stuck in a particular scene and don't know how to move forward, I usually have an idea for a scene later in the story, so I jump to that and work on it. Usually that helps free up the blockage from the previous part and I can go back and finish it. I usually begin in a linear fashion, but eventually I'll jump ahead to scenes later in the book if I get stuck somewhere. It helps keep the momentum going.

What do you think will be the future of your field?

Unfortunately, AI. It's already making strides in cover art and now Amazon is using AI as a way for writers to generate their own audiobooks. I figure eventually readers will be able to make their own books using AI. There'll be a way they can type in what characters they want, the type of story, and the tone, and it will pop out a book. Probably not a great book or even a really good book, but a book, nonetheless.

What local cons do you attend? The Small Press Expo, Awesome Con, or others? Any comments about attending them?

I did the Gaithersburg Book Festival one year and the Kensington Book Festival. I had attended Awesome Con once as a panelist. The following year, I had a table with two writer friends. This was pre-pandemic. And then I had a table all to myself this year (2024) at Awesome Con. The two local book festivals are great if you're a booklover and want to browse an eclectic sampling of different categories of books. As a vendor, however, they were tough crowds to sell to.

Awesome Con is a mixed bag. I definitely had a better experience years ago. This year, it seemed like prices were much higher on everything and people were reluctant to spend money. It was fun to connect with fans and readers, but three days can be a bit of a slog. And the prices they were charging at the convention center for stuff ($5.00 for a bottle of water; $16 for four chicken tenders and fries) seemed outrageously high. Hard to sell books when people are spending hundreds on admission, parking, and food for the day.

What comic books do you read regularly or recommend? Do you have a local store?

I don't read monthly comics anymore. I tend to look for the collected trades when they're on sale, usually through Amazon or eBay. Right now, I'm on an Ed Brubaker kick. Just picked up the Sleeper Omnibus for a good price. Loved his Incognito series. Ed, if you're reading this. I really, really need a volume 3 of Incognito. I can't believe you ended the series on a cliffhanger like that. I thought there was more coming, but it's been over a decade now. Doesn't look like you're going to continue the story. How about licensing the characters to me and I'll finish the story. What do you think?

What's your favorite thing about DC?

Batman. Oh, wait, you mean the city, not the comic company.

The restaurants. The parks. The public transportation.

Least favorite?

The traffic and the over-priced real estate.

How about a favorite local restaurant?

The GF and I like to go to the King Street Oyster Bar in Potomac. Great food. Of course, whenever I recommend a place, it kind of jinxes the whole thing and the quality slips. Don't let me down, King Street!

My favorite place for sandwiches is Twinbrook Deli in Rockville, and Bethesda Bagels for, you know, bagels.

Do you have a website or blog?

My publisher website is: http://vintagecitypublishing.com/ And I have an Amazon Author page: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Slade-Grayson/author/B006F49WO0?

I don't have a personal website anymore. Too much work to keep it from being hacked or spammed. And I'm not on social media anymore because I got tired of the constant drama.

How has the COVID-19 outbreak affected you, personally and professionally?

As someone who doesn't like to go out and has a tiny circle of friends and family, it didn't affect me much, other than I learned to do my grocery shopping really early in the morning and buy toilet paper by the case. The hardest part was trying to make it comfortable for my son. He likes school and is very social by nature. It was hard keeping him home for a year and seeing him miss out on a lot of social activities. But it's behind us now and he's doing great.