Catching up with Alan Jenkins for 1/6 issue #2

by Mike Rhode 

Last year I spoke with Professor Alan Jenkins about 1/6, a serialized comic book about what if Donald Trump had succeeded in stealing the 2020 presidential election via insurrection. I encourage you to read that interview before carrying on here as Alan and I caught up via telephone about issue #2 which came out last month. 

 Mike Rhode:  1/6, issue number two, a double size issue, came out in January. This one's almost completely dedicated to recapping the reality of the events of the 2020 election, and then the insurrection, or riot or whatever happened in DC on January 6th. In our previous interview, you had said that you had hoped to wrap up the entire book by this January. So what happened?

Alan Jenkins:  <laughs> So events continued to unfold. We thought that we had the information we needed to fill this series out, but then came the January 6th House hearings, indictments, Supreme Court arguments, all kinds of real-life events, many of which we thought were too compelling not to include. And so [coauthor] Gan [Golan] and I found ourselves writing, and rewriting, and then eliminating, because at the end of the day, we want this to be a compelling, entertaining story, not, as our artist Will Rosado says, a lawyer's PowerPoint. We crammed a lot in, and then we had to scale some of it back and figure out the most entertaining and informative way to tell this story. A lot of the delay was due to that. And also to the fascinating process of comic book publishing.

Jamal Igle cover

Mike Rhode: <laugh>. Was this originally intended to be a double sized issue, or did it have so much material organically needing to be added to it? Or is it because of the mechanics of comic book publishing?

Alan Jenkins: We always thought that issue two would be more substantial, because we knew from the beginning that whereas issue one is set about nine months after the fictional successful insurrection, issue two was going to jump back to the events leading up to the insurrection and include a lot of real events. It's still historical fiction, but it includes a lot of documented events. And we knew that we were going to need space to tell that story and to also include our characters. So we always knew it was going to be bigger than the first. We didn't know what the exact page number was going to be, but a double issue seemed right to us.

Mike Rhode: Speaking of the true life events that are included, I was wondering about who suggested the varying panel styles for truth, assumptions, and straight fiction. A lot of times this is done in a comic with coloring, but I think it worked extremely well with the panel borders in this instance.

Alan Jenkins: I'm glad that it worked for you. We discussed a lot of different possibilities for distinguishing between these three categories: documented events, purely fictional events, and speculation. The speculation area is where we know that something happened. For example, Cassidy Hutchinson testified about conversations that were had in her presence, but we didn't know precisely who said what, what the room or the setting was. We wanted to be very clear about what we know and don't know, so we had those three categories. We did look at coloring for a while. We thought maybe we would over-saturate the fictional events and under-saturate the real events, but using different shapes of the panels, which was Gan's idea, seemed to work best.

Mike Rhode: When you start looking for it, it's pretty clear, but the story reads very smoothly too. In fact, it's probably one of the best reporting or nonfiction comics I've read recently. You talked a little bit about how much research went into the issue, but realistically I assume that this book had you reading quite a bit of legal documentation and then trying to digest it down for an average reader. Would that be accurate?

Alan Jenkins: We consumed a huge amount of legal information. We spoke with reporters and experts and others. I had two research assistants who helped us in making sure that we got the facts right. It was a hugely time-consuming process. Really interesting, and often very terrifying. To give you an example, we spoke with a wonderful researcher, KatherineStewart, who studies the Christian Nationalist movements. She gave us a lot of information about how they operate in the real world, and how they contributed (in her view) to the insurrection. She actually has a documentary film coming out, based on her book The Power Worshippers, that captures some of what's in her reporting. It was really scary once we started to look at what some of these folks are doing, what they did leading up to the insurrection, but we absolutely wanted to include at least hints of those real events in the book. We spent a lot of time collecting that information.

Mike Rhode: For your young man Travis whose father Clive survives him; the Christian nationalism is shown as they actually talked to a minister about whether or not Trump is really the president. I found that page quite interesting, as the minister was totally ignoring Christian values. <laugh>.

Alan Jenkins: We wanted to depict everyone, all of our characters, with empathy. Our character Clive, who is a MAGA voter and a Christian, was really grappling with what it means for religious leaders on the right to be advocating violence, and to be denying the truth of what we see with our own eyes. That was very much reflective of that research and of some of the conversations that we had with everyday folks.

Rosado art

Mike Rhode: The fictional characters did not get fleshed out as much as they did in the first issue, but I think everybody got a few pages right?

Alan Jenkins: That's right. We wanted to make sure that we were catching up with all of our people, our characters. As you say, we weren't able to give them as much ink in issue two, but for issues three and four, they're going to come roaring back and we're going to see a lot more of all of them and their interactions with each other.

Mike Rhode: What are your projected timelines for three and four?

Alan Jenkins: Ah. <laughs> I'm always loath to predict, but we're hoping to have issue three out around the start of summer and issue four out before election day.

Mike Rhode: Are you hoping to have it compiled before election day?

Alan Jenkins: I would love that, but I think realistically the way the publishing world works, it's going to be difficult to do that with a publisher. We might decide to bundle it ourselves, but I think the way you reach a much larger mass audience is to work with publishers. We'll see what the time frame is on that.

Mike Rhode: I noticed there are some additional artists with this issue...

Moline's Pence

Alan Jenkins: Yes, we brought on some new folks in addition to our core team. I want to shout out Karl Moline, who really filled in a lot. We had more work than Will, our main penciller and inker, was available to do. Karl came in and did some really good work to fill out the book. And we added a number of other folks, mostly because it was a lot of work to do in a relatively short period of time. So we had to build the team.

Mike Rhode: It looks like the book's artwork was divided up between people, because I can see a difference in the penciling. I'm assuming that one person individually penciled some pages and the other person penciled others.

Alan Jenkins: It definitely took a village. Will has really perfected our characters, and so he did most of the work with our characters throughout the book. And Karl has a particular talent for capturing real people. When you look at Vice President Pence, Senator Cruz, and some of these other folks, Karl took those and did a great job of making them, for the most part, instantly recognizable.

Mike Rhode: Anyway, I didn't find the switch in artists to be disruptive. It read smoothly, which doesn't always happen when you switch an artist in the middle of a book.  One of the things that you said back in the first interview was that "Trump doesn't get much ink. The book is in part about Trumpism and the transcendent threats to democracy and equal dignity that he represents. But, if Trump went away tomorrow, those forces would still exist. That's an important theme of the book." That appears less true in the current issue. I think Trump, we could argue, is one of the two major characters in this issue. Although, surrounded by all his sycophants, maybe he's not in there as much as I thought he was. Anyway, this one focused more on Trump. How did you feel about that <laughs>?

Alan Jenkins: This is historical fiction, but part of our goal was to establish a record of what happened, especially when you have a lot of people trying to deny the truth of what happened or mischaracterize it. We wanted to convey that the insurrection actually had three parts, and we have a diagram in the back indicating the three parts, but we also have to tell the story. So one part was absolutely the violence, and that was the most shocking. It also is the most visually striking.  But there was also the strong-arming of officials -- state and local officials, and Mike Pence, the vice president at the time. [Third,] there was the sending of fake electors to states, which is not visually interesting, but absolutely a crucial part of the plan to overturn our democracy. We wanted to explain those elements in ways that were visually interesting and entertaining. And yeah, Trump was very much at the center of that. We didn't want to give him more ink than we thought his role deserved in part, as I said last time, because we think Trump hasn't gone away, but even if he went away tomorrow, we would still be left with his legacy. We didn't want to make it all about him, but he was at the center of what happened.

Mike Rhode: I think you did a pretty good job, as opposed to our current mass media who continues to treat him as if he should be a legitimate candidate. Going slightly off topic here, but do you have any feelings about whether or not he should be on the ballot? <laugh>

Alan Jenkins: You may have seen that in issue two, we have a petition that readers can scan and sign to remove all Insurrectionists from the ballot.

Mike Rhode: The page that's labeled 'Make your voice heard.'

Alan Jenkins: Right, exactly. Pursuant to the Constitution, to section three of the 14th Amendment. My own view, and I teach the 14th Amendment, is that Trump clearly engaged in an insurrection after swearing an oath, and I believe that he's covered by that provision of the 14th Amendment. But the case is currently, as we speak, before the U.S. Supreme Court, and they had oral arguments on February 8th and expressed some skepticism about the idea that he can be barred, at least by the state of Colorado, from running. So we'll know. We might not know by the time this interview is out, but we will know this winter what the Supreme Court thinks the Constitution says, and their word goes, while mine doesn't.

Mike Rhode: I don't quite understand because it's not like [a candidate] can [automatically] be on the ballot of every state. Normally you have to get a certain amount of signatures, and then the state has to decide that to put you on the ballot. So I'm not quite sure why this suddenly became a federalized issue, just like Bush v Gore [where the Constitutional mechanism of using the House of Representatives to settle the issue was superseded]. I don't quite understand why he suddenly has the absolute right to be on the ballot in states.

Alan Jenkins: We knew it would get to the Supreme Court eventually, because at the end of the day the secretaries of state and the state courts are interpreting the federal constitution. So however it turned out there would be the ability to seek review by the U.S. Supreme Court of how the Constitution is interpreted. It would've been shocking if they had declined to take up this case. I think an interesting thing, at least for us law geeks, is that typically this very conservative Supreme Court believes strongly in states' rights. The states have a very important role in administering elections under our constitutional system. And now, at least in oral argument, we heard Justices say essentially the opposite, which is, "how can you allow one state to assume the power to enforce the 14th Amendment?" So it was fascinating, making strange bedfellows for sure. We'll see what they decide.

Mike Rhode: Getting back into your comic itself, are you at a point of still being able to cover your costs for the book? I know you had a Kickstarter [to start it]. Are you planning on another Kickstarter to finish it?

Alan Jenkins: We probably will do another Kickstarter. We've been fortunate to have been able to raise a lot of money, which means in turn, relatively speaking for the comic book world, we've been able to hire top-notch artists and produce a quality book. I'm well aware there are a lot of amazing creators who are not able to put together the resources to do that, and unfortunately the end product suffers. We've been fortunate there. We almost certainly will do another Kickstarter to finish up the series and also to make sure we get it out, because it's [also] an infrastructure of distributing comic books, which costs money. We've been very fortunate to have an amazing printer and distributor, Sun Print Solutions in Utah. They're a union printer, which was very important to us, and they’ve just been fantastic. Not only in printing the book, but in helping us to get it out into the world. We’ll be going back to them and they’ve gotta get paid, so we’ll, we’ll be raising some more money.

Mike Rhode: You spoke about the difficulties in distribution and I imagine you’re still looking for mechanisms to get it into comic bookstores. Since the distribution market in American comics is continuing to shatter, have you’ve found a distributor yet?

Alan Jenkins: No.  We’ve sold thousands of copies of issue one, overwhelmingly through Amazon and our Shopify site, which is https://onesixcomicsstore.com. We have reached some comic bookstores that are selling the series largely through shoe leather—literally walking to stores and showing them the book, letting them see that it's a quality book, both in terms of the art and storytelling and in terms of the quality of production. Most of the places where we've handed them a sample and said, "Hey, do you want to sell some of these?" they've said yes.  But that can't be our distribution model. We can't be [going] everywhere. And many of the places where we most want to sell the book through stores are in the Midwest and the South. We are reaching those places through Amazon and Shopify, but we really want to also reach those people who just come into the comic bookstore looking for something interesting and new and see our book. Not because they're interested in the insurrection per se, but because they want a good story. That [audience] we have not yet been able to crack via stores.

Martinbrough variant

Mike Rhode: Another part of the comic book market that you've advertised in both issues is variant covers [on of which is by local cartoonist Shawn Martinbrough]. Are those available yet?

Alan Jenkins: The variant cover for issue one is available, and we're making them mostly available through stores at this point because we want to make sure we're limiting supply. The variant cover for issue number two is not yet done, but will be a very familiar riff on a popular series when people see it.

Mike Rhode: Just to confirm, the varying covers are in fact not available on shop on your Shopify site?

Alan Jenkins: That's correct.

Mike Rhode: Alright, because that of course is a great way to make money off comic fans. I know you're a comic fan and I personally would give you guys more money by buying the varying covers just because I believe in the project.

Alan Jenkins: I won't bore you with the details of setting up new sales channels, but we have to figure out when it's the right time to do that.

Mike Rhode: Is there anything that I have not asked you that we should talk about?

Alan Jenkins: I would just say that this is the moment for this story, and we really want to engage as many people as we can. I hope your readers will consider reaching out to their comic book store to say, "Hey, we wish you would order this. " We are definitely marketing, both email and mail, to comic bookstores. We are also making hundreds of free copies available, as we did last time with issue one, to public libraries, to school libraries, to colleges and universities, to pro-democracy organizations, and that's an important part of this effort. That's, in part, the reason we raised outside money -- so that we could get the story out to people who might not otherwise have the resources, or even the access, to purchase it. We want it to be in their hands for free. That's an important part of our mission as well.

Mike Rhode: Speaking of freebies, did you send it to members of Congress again with the second issue?

Alan Jenkins: Yes, we did. We sent it to all of the election deniers in Congress, of which there are over 150, and also sent it to some of the constitutional heroes from 1/6 in Congress in both parties.

Mike Rhode: Did you hear back from anybody this time?

Alan Jenkins: No, haven't heard. I met at, San Diego Comic-Con, Robert Garcia a congressman who actually took the oath of office on [the Library of Congress'] copy of Action Comics number one. He expressed interest, so we'll see whether there's something we can cook up with him.

Mike Rhode: Last time we talked about the comic's African-American component, but it's much less present this time, since the Republican MAGA are a largely white phenomena, so I'll just hold that question until we talk about issue three.

1/6 #1-2 are available now at https://onesixcomicsstore.com/

Chatting with 1/6 comic book writer Alan Jenkins about insurrections and threats to democracy

 by Mike Rhode

On the weekend of Juneteenth, and Awesome Con, I had the opportunity to speak with Professor Alan Jenkins, co-writer of 1/6: A Graphic Novel, which was funded through Kickstarter, released digitally earlier this year, and now the first issue is now being distributed in print as a standard comic book. I think we had an excellent and eye-opening talk, and I’m very glad that we met when he was down for the Con.  Here’s some background from his press release:

Harvard Law professor Alan Jenkins, who is heading to D.C. this weekend for ComicCon to showcase his new book, 1/6: The Graphic Novel. This unique work delves into an alternate history, envisioning what would have happened if the January 6th Insurrection at the US Capitol Building had succeeded. It's one of the first pop culture vehicles to take on the insurrection, representing Alan's ongoing commitment to leveraging popular culture for social change. Comic books have a rich history in the fight for democracy and freedom from bigotry. The first issue of Captain America featured the superhero socking HItler in the jaw—nine months before the U.S. entered WWII. Drawing inspiration from this legacy, Alan, an avid comic book enthusiast and prolific writer on the intersection of pop culture and social change, joined forces with NY Times bestselling author Gan Golan to create a compelling graphic novel that tells the story of 1/6 in a compelling way. Their aim is to inspire everyday Americans to become engaged and demand a better future as our right to a free and fair election faces threats. This release follows the success of the team's previous superhero comic, Helvetika Bold, which galvanized a wide audience to take action for social justice. Alan is not only a Harvard Law professor but also a columnist for The Hollywood Reporter and a regular commentator on CBS and MSNBC. He teaches courses at Harvard Law on Race and the Law and Social Justice, and co-founded The Opportunity Agenda, a social justice communication lab.

Alan's previous interviews have been with with CNN, VICE, CNET, Washington Post (with our buddy Michael Cavna),  and WNYC so we’re in good company.

Mike Rhode: What type of comic work do you do?

Alan Jenkins:  I'm a freshman comic book writer. This is my first book. I produced a short comic book several years ago, but this is my first time actually writing.

Mike Rhode: What was the short comic you produced?

Alan Jenkins:

It was called Helvetika Bold. My former organization that I co-founded, the Opportunity Agenda, we thought that a comic book would be a good way to lift our profile and explain what we do, and we were correct. The organization works on communication strategies to advance opportunity and human rights in the US.

Mike Rhode: And that was a giveaway from the organization?

 Alan Jenkins: Yes, exactly.

Mike Rhode: Regarding 1/6, your new comic, I'm going to ask how actually you pronounce it.

Alan Jenkins: One six.

Mike Rhode: So it's not “one slash six,” it’s going to be four issues, and it's a standard comic book size book. Why don't you give us the basic plot?

Alan Jenkins: The series asks and answers the question: What if the January 6, 2021 insurrection had been successful?  It follows actual events up until the point at which many people will remember, especially in the DC area, when Officer Eugene Goodman led the mob away from the Senate Chamber on January 6th. As a whole, the series follows the events that led to the insurrection, both physical and political. And then it imagines a world in which the mob turned right instead of left, and they entered the Senate Chamber. They did everything they were threatening to do. Then President Trump does many of the things that he was threatening to do: declaring martial law and deputizing the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, which they were asking him to do. Democracy is extinguished, and then the remainder of the series is about everyday people coming together to try to restore the democracy. Also, as the founders of our country did, arguing not only about how best to win, but about what kind of country should emerge. Just as Hamilton and Madison and Jefferson were arguing about what our constitution should be, even as they were fighting the British [ed. note: Professor Jenkins is slightly hyperbolic here for the sake of the story. Actually, the Constitutional Convention took place later in 1789, after the war was won and the Articles of Confederation proved inadequate to maintain a government, and new agreements and rules were required]. Our characters are having those same arguments. At the end of the series, we expect readers will have some hope, but I won't spoil the ending.

Mike Rhode: Because you still have three issues to come too. Why is this a graphic novel instead of short novella?

Alan Jenkins: The short answer is I love comics and I love democracy. There's a long history of comic books being both entertaining and upholding the values of democracy and fighting authoritarianism and bigotry. The first Captain America issue has a cover of Cap slugging Adolf Hitler in the jaw. This was six or nine months before the US entered World War II. Cap’s creators, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby were young Jewish Americans. They had family in Europe under threat of the Nazis and what became the Holocaust. They created an amazing hero and were intent on depicting Adolf Hitler as the villain that he was. Superman fought the Ku Klux Klan in the 1950s [on his radio show]. The Black Panther fought the Ku Klux Klan in the 1970s. And then there are graphic novels like Maus and others. This is a part of a long tradition. It seemed very natural. In addition to that, I and my co-writer Gan Golan wanted to reach a broad audience, including people who maybe don't have the time to read an 800-page report from the January 6th committee. Maybe they aren't glued to CNN or reading the Washington Post as vehemently as we are, but they care about our democracy. In addition, if you're 80 years old, you grew up with comics in the US, if you're eight years old, you're growing up with comics now, and you don't have to have an advanced degree to read them. You don't have to be super fluent in English in order to consume and understand comic books. And so it felt like just the right vehicle for us.

Mike Rhode: You mentioned your co-author. How did the team come together?

Gan Golan

Alan Jenkins: I had worked with Gan on the previous comic book that I mentioned, Helvetika Bold. He's a New York Times award-winning graphic novelist mm-hmm. When I had this idea to do a graphic novel, not only about the insurrection, but with this speculative fiction idea of “what if the insurrection had been successful?” he was the first person I called. In part because I wanted to work with him, and in part because I wanted to see what he thought about the idea, “Is this gonna fly? Does this make any sense?” He's very busy, because he's a climate activist, but he immediately said, “Yeah, we've gotta do this. But I can't do the art.” He's a very talented artist, but he said he didn't have the bandwidth. So he and I wrote the script. We've been writing each issue, and we assembled a team of veteran industry artists to do the artwork and I'm really, really pleased with what they've done. Will Rosado, who's a veteran DC and Marvel artist, is our main penciler and inker. [Lee Loughridge does colors and letters are by Tom Orzechowski].

Mike Rhode: Did you form your own company to publish this?

Alan Jenkins: We did. We wanted to move very quickly. So the first issue came out in digital form on January 6th of this year. We'd have to jump through too many hoops in order to go the traditional publishing route. We just jumped in and created OneSix Comix.

Mike Rhode: And it's partially funded through grants?

Alan Jenkins: That's correct. We did a Kickstarter, and we also approached a number of funders.

Mike Rhode: How do you write? Did you and Gan just write a full script with what the action should be? Or did you do it more like Marvel method, where you wrote roughly what you wanted and then expected the artists to interpret it?

Will Rosado

Alan Jenkins: It was a mix. I would say we got more Marvel style as we got more comfortable with our artist. Gan and I sat down together many hours doing what they call in TV screenwriting, “breaking story.” Like, “What's gonna happen? What are the big moments? What are the images that we need to include?” We actually created some images up on the monitor for us that we could look at, and then we committed it to a script which is quite specific. But then we also told, Will, our main artist, “Look, we want you to try things out to experiment,” and he definitely came up with some ways of conveying big ideas that were both more compelling and more succinct than what we had created.

Mike Rhode: Did you do thumbnails or was it just a written script?

Alan Jenkins: Written script. And then there's a lot of real places and people so there’s a lot of reference images.

Mike Rhode: In fact, the front cover appears to have Mike Pence hanging, or at least Mike Pence's feet.

Alan Jenkins: Well, we intentionally left that ambiguous, but you can see in the lower right hand corner is the Vice Presidential pin. We want to depict what the rioters and the Insurrectionists told us they were going to do. And that was certainly one of those things.

Mike Rhode: Let me ask one more thing about your artist before we move on to more general stuff. Is this all digital drawing, or is there a paper and ink behind it?

Alan Jenkins: Will's process? He does both. He works in both media.

Mike Rhode:  It looks like you did variant covers with people that are known as either African-American cartoonists or political cartoonists, since I guess Pia Guerra has switched to being an editorial cartoonist. I assume one of you reached out to find additional people?

Shawn Martinbrough art

Alan Jenkins: Both of us thought it would be a great opportunity to bring in other artists who might not have the time to do an entire issue or series, but could give us a compelling image. Alex Albadree's variant is coming out soon. [The other cover artists are Jamal Igle and Shawn Martinbrough]

Mike Rhode: How do you actually buy it now? How does one buy the copy of the book?

Alan Jenkins: You can get it on Amazon. You can get it at http://www.onesixcomics.com , and we're starting to market it through comic book stores. It’s in about a dozen comic book stores right now [and stores can order it wholesale here]. While I'm here in the DC area. I'm going to visit a few more and see who might want to carry it. I’m hoping that your readers will ask for it because I would much rather sell it that way. Amazon sales are great, and they're doing very well…

Mike Rhode: But they take an amazing amount of money off the top…

Alan Jenkins: Money and time, and you don't always know what you're getting. I want people to be able to see the quality of the book, of which we're very proud. So I would like it to be available in comic stores as well.

Mike Rhode: Let's go back to your background now - when and where were you born?

Alan Jenkins: I was born in the sixties on Long Island, New York, and I grew up in New York, and spent most of my years, other than in college, in Brooklyn.

Mike Rhode: The book is dedicated to your mom, Olga Jenkins. And I see she had a doctorate, so did she inspire your career?

Alan Jenkins: Yeah, very much. She had a doctorate in education, while her parents did not finish high school. They were immigrants from The Bahamas. My mom was dyslexic, and, grew up really in poverty in Philadelphia and, through intelligence and hard work, became a teacher. She was a math teacher, and got a doctorate in education from Columbia Teacher's College.

Mike Rhode: That’s the real story of immigrants in America.

Alan Jenkins: Yeah, exactly. And she was a civil rights activist, which also influenced me, in a lot of my career as a civil rights lawyer.

Mike Rhode: Your degree is in law? Where'd you take that from?

Alan Jenkins: From Harvard, and that's where I'm teaching now.

Mike Rhode: And that's where you're teaching? So you commute to Boston?

Alan Jenkins:  Yeah, every week during the school year.

Mike Rhode: All right. <Laugh>, everything's a decision. So why are you visiting DC now?

Alan Jenkins: I'm here for Awesome Con, which so far has been awesome. Great. Just as advertised. And I love DC. I spent several years here, the weather's great today, and I'm enjoying hanging out. I'm gonna visit some comic book stores and see some friends.

Mike Rhode: Returning to 1/6, can you explain how you learned to write a comic? You said this was your second one. It doesn't sound like you've done storyboarding from movies or anything like that. Did you look at a book? Did you just talk to your co-author and decide to take his lead?

Alan Jenkins: This is actually the first one that I've written, because for the other one I was just the publisher. It was a mix of inspirations. I read a lot of comic books. I've been reading comic books all my life, but I returned to speculative fiction works, recent ones such as DMZ and Calexit. And the George Orwell 1984 graphic novel adaptation and V for Vendetta. I looked at a lot of different types of work. I looked at Scott McCloud and his book Making Comics. And I learned a ton from, and I'm still learning from, my co-writer Gan Golan and from Will, because it's an interactive process, right? We'll write something and Will will say, “You know what, what's this? I don't know how to depict this.” And then we'll have to go back and make it clear or do it differently. It's been a constant, very steep learning curve and constant learning over time.

Mike Rhode: I've got to say for your first comic you picked good collaborators because it runs very smoothly, and sometimes it's very hard to write this sequential nature of a page. I think it's easier to jump from scene to scene to scene, in which case, it's more of an illustrated story and less of a comic.

Alan Jenkins: Well, thank you. Yeah, it's a different medium. I've done some screenwriting, but in screenwriting you'll say, “Joe walks into the room,” and here either he is in the room or he is not in the room.  Figuring out that one image that depicts a whole series of events or motion is really a new skill.

Mike Rhode: We just talked about your influences for the book, but was John Lewis’ March an Influence?

Alan Jenkins: Absolutely. I actually knew John Lewis. I don't know how well he knew me, but we had spent time together. He’s a huge inspiration, for my entire life, not just in comic books. The fact that he chose to tell his own story through a graphic novel, is very inspiring. And I think because it did well, it signified that it was okay -- that this was a legitimate storytelling form for serious material, and that it could be profitable or at least, marketable. Yeah, it was very important. There was Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Story, a comic book [link to download a pdf] in 1956 about King, and the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and that was in the hands of demonstrators in Tahrir Square in Egypt and helped to inform the Arab Spring and then the Occupy Wall Street movement in the U.S. I actually have that one up on my wall at home. That was also very inspiring to me. And back when I was a kid, there was something called Golden Legacy comics which was a series about black history and black leaders. My dad got me the whole series of those. I have them somewhere in my attic. So the idea of comic books relating stories of civil rights and democracy and equal dignity was, to me, a very long tradition and felt very natural.

Mike Rhode: Did you do the bicycle ride to 7-Eleven in the 1970s before comic book stores?

Alan Jenkins: I did indeed. We had Frederick’s Stationary and every Wednesday we were there right after school. I also went to some of the earliest comic cons back in New York City. Around 1973, Marvel had a convention. It was just Marvel and I still have the program from it. And I went to some of the early New York Comic Cons where it was just comics. It was a very small, intimate bunch.

Mike Rhode: The guys in the bottom of the hotel…

Alan Jenkins:  <Laugh> Exactly. Exactly.

Mike Rhode: So are you a DC person or a Marvel one? Sounds like a Marvel guy.

Alan Jenkins: Oh, definitely Marvel. Yeah. Definitely Marvel. DC's come a long way in terms of nuance and sophistication and storytelling. But yeah, coming up I was very much a Marvel kid.

Mike Rhode: After this set of comics, what do you want to do? Do you want to do more comics? Do you have an idea?

Alan Jenkins: Yeah, I would love to do more. Now that we've created One Six Comics I think it would be great to take on some other subjects, but we haven't even discussed it. We’ve got three more of this one to do.

Mike Rhode? Although you may have to change your logo of a hangman's noose over the Capitol building, depending on where you go after this.

Alan Jenkins: We'll see.

Mike Rhode: What do you think about the current political climate? Unfortunately, your book is coming out in a time of pushback by what we would consider the regressive forces, and obviously you are speaking against them, but your book is a dystopia where they won. You must see some hope for the future, but in the meantime, is there anything you want to say?

Alan Jenkins: I'm very worried about the future of our democracy and the fundamental principle that we're all created equal. I think most of the forces that led to the insurrection on January 6th are still with us. There's been accountability for many individuals who showed up because President Trump told them to show up. People have to be held responsible for their actions, but we've seen almost no accountability for the political actors who really laid the groundwork for this insurrection. There are still 179 election deniers in Congress who were either elected or reelected in the 2022 midterms. The forces of anti-Semitism and racism and xenophobia that fueled the insurrection, the actual riot, are still very much with us. I'm very worried, which is one of the main reasons why we wrote the series.

At the same time, I do have a lot of hope. I think that we have in our country a history and a legacy of standing up to bigotry, of standing up to authoritarianism and defending democracy. It was a small group of elected and appointed officials, mostly Republicans, who said “no” to the coup. Instead of just choosing teams, they insisted on playing by the rules. And that gives me a lot of hope. The activism of the American public right now in this era similarly does -- the Black Lives Matter movement and the Immigrant Rights Movement, and many of these movements for voting rights and justice all give me a lot of hope. The story's unwritten, literally and figuratively. And I'm betting on democracy.

Mike Rhode: I hope so. Democracy has meant different things in American life throughout two centuries. And forces are opposed to what I would consider true democracy, and doubling down with book bans, voting restrictions, et cetera. Every day in the newspaper we see something that's very old, but popping up again cloaked as something new.

Alan Jenkins: Yeah, that's right. In future issues, we're going to be taking on book bans and the oppression of LGBTQ Americans, and a number of other themes of that kind. Because it's set in an alternate present, we want to really see how a lot of these things play out for good and for ill.

Mike Rhode: In the first book, I noticed there are some fun pieces like the Clarence and Ginni Thomas Federal Judicial Building with a statue of them, and elsewhere there's this large statue of Trump. And one thing that made me think it was leaning towards being an African-American book, and I'm interested to hear what you say, is that Ben's Chili Bowl restaurant seems to be the center of the revolution, or at least one cell of the revolution. I noticed it's not specifically named, but those of us in DC will realize it's Ben's Chili Bowl <laugh>.

Alan Jenkins: It's one of my favorite locations in the city. It's endured and weathered so much. Ben's certainly was the inspiration for the center of the resistance. But it's a multicultural resistance. It's including white folks, and one thing that was very important to us. As you'll see, there's a MAGA voter who's one of our main characters. We really believe it's important to treat everyone with empathy, to try to understand people's motivations, rather than demonize them. There are bad guys in this story, but there are also people who are kind of coming to grips with it, who believe in democracy, and were duped by former President Trump and are trying to come to terms with that.  Hopefully we told the story. We are telling a story that can be appealing to everybody.

Mike Rhode: It will be appealing to many, but not everybody, I think. It's been very well done. It looks like you've got about five main characters whose story you're going to be following?

Alan Jenkins: That's about right.

Mike Rhode: It's hard to talk about the book without having spoilers, because the things that drive people to the actions that they take are shocking, but you don't want to ruin the book for people. Have you guys hit any ruts or writer's blocks while you've been working on this?

Alan Jenkins: No, but the news has been constantly changing. Issue number one is set a few months after the successful insurrection. Issue two jumps back to the events leading up to the insurrection. And we were learning more and more and more about those events. We have a Google doc, which is our script, and every couple of days we had to go back in and try to change something. You can't include everything or it wouldn't be a compelling readable story, so we're kind of constantly making decisions about what we learned about Tucker Carlson, or Fox criticizing Trump, should we include that? I would say the biggest challenge is both reacting to emerging events and also deciding what to include and what not to include.

Mike Rhode: So the story then is obviously not written all the way through issue four. You must have an outline?

Alan Jenkins: Exactly. We have an outline.

Mike Rhode: So when do you see it wrapping up then?

Alan Jenkins: Probably around January 6th of next year.

Mike Rhode: Are you going to try to have a trade out around the same time as the four singles finish?

Alan Jenkins: We are shopping it as a full-on graphic novel, so, we'll see.

Mike Rhode: You're not necessarily publishing the full graphic novel?

Alan Jenkins: No, I think comic book publishing is enough <laugh>, so…

Mike Rhode: Is this distributed by Diamond? Or one of the other big distributors?

Alan Jenkins: Not yet. I think in part, because they don't distribute just single issues, so I think they want to make sure we have a track record.

Mike Rhode: Oh, that's right. Cold Cut used to take the single issues and they don't exist anymore.

Alan Jenkins: Yeah. But of course, the distribution channels are changing so fast. I don't know, we'll see where Diamond emerges.

Mike Rhode: Is there anything else you want to say about this project that I haven't asked?

close-up of the defaced Lincoln Memorial panel

Alan Jenkins: We have, to go along with the book, a free Education and Action Guide. There's a QR code in the back of the book, and if you scan that, readers can get direct access. We did this with the Western State Center which is a pro-democracy non-profit out of the Pacific Northwest. Some people will read the book and enjoy the book, and that'll be it. But some people, we hope will want to take action in support of democracy and challenging bigotry. The Action Guide has very specific and easy steps that people can do either as individuals in their community, or on the political policy front.

Mike Rhode: Did you actually make enough money with the Kickstarter and grants to fund the whole project? Or are you going to need to raise more money?

Alan Jenkins: It depends in part on sales, but I think we're good financially to host the whole thing. But what Kickstarter, and our supporters on Kickstarter helped us do, is get it into lots of hands. For example we sent issue one to several hundred members of Congress, including 150 election deniers. We sent several thousand copies to civil rights groups, to prodemocracy groups, to public libraries. We sent Ron DeSantis a copy. Haven't heard from him.  And also, libraries in Florida and many other states, and our Kickstarter fans really helped with that. So it takes a village.

Mike Rhode: Did any members of Congress that you sent it to respond back to you?

Alan Jenkins: Haven’t heard back from any MoCs yet.

Mike Rhode: Do you still buy comics?

Alan Jenkins: I do. And, in fact, I bought some comics at Awesome Con

Mike Rhode: Anything you want to recommend that you get regularly?

Alan Jenkins: That's a good question. I like to see what independents are doing. I like the Black and follow-up White series by Kwanza Osajyefo. It posits a world in which only black folks have superpowers, and it's not well received by society. That’s a good one. My college classmate Reggie Hudlin now owns Milestone, so I'm really interested in where that's going to go.

Mike Rhode: Do you still have a local store?

Alan Jenkins:  I do. East Side Mags in Montclair, New Jersey is my go-to place. I'm actually doing a book signing there on July 1st. The owner is Jeff Beck. Jeff was one of the people who I reached out to when I was first setting up the comic book operation, and he gave me a ton of really useful information about how to survive and thrive in the industry. So he's a hero.

Mike Rhode: What's your favorite thing about DC?

Alan Jenkins: Besides Ben's Chili Bowl? I like that DC is a place of ideas and culture, even if not always interwoven in the way that I think they should be. Obviously it's the seat of government. You have a lot of social justice and public policy organizations. You have a lot of activism. You have remarkable arts and culture here. And that's what I'm about. My career has been at the intersection of storytelling, social justice, and and law. And so this is the place for it. I think that's the crux of it.

Mike Rhode: The least favorite?

Alan Jenkins: Well, it's similar. The cynicism of and around government these days is really disheartening. I've worked in the Justice Department. I was law clerk in the Supreme Court for Harry Blackmun, the author of Roe versus Wade. And a Republican. There were people of both parties who were devoted to our democracy. Justice Blackmun was appointed by Richard Nixon, and then he ruled against Richard Nixon in the U.S. v. Nixon case about the tapes, because he believed in rights and democracy, and there's a lot less of that now.

Mike Rhode: It seems like people have chosen the side for their sports team as opposed to what's good for the country.

Alan Jenkins: I think that's unfortunately the case. It's not the first time that that's happened. We've been through McCarthyism and lots of other dark periods, and we're capable of coming out of it smarter. I think we have it in us, but it's not a foregone conclusion. It's up to us.

Mike Rhode: Unfortunately, the current trends one can track all the way to the establishment of the country or earlier. I think the current Republican party is clearly in line with Barry Goldwater's idea what the Republican Party should be which was a very white for Republican party.

Alan Jenkins: I agree with you, but it's also interesting that after Goldwater's defeat, the conservative movement spent a lot of time reinventing itself to move away from explicit racism and more towards the dog whistle. And Trump blew that up, you know? He has been saying the quiet part out loud and without consequences. It's very dangerous when elected officials, especially the most powerful in the country are explicitly racist and white supremacists, because it gives permission to lots of other people.

Mike Rhode: I noticed that when Trump was in power, that all of a sudden people were willing to say stuff that they would never have been willing to say before that.

Shawn Martinbrough art

Alan Jenkins: Exactly. And one of the things you'll see in the book is that Trump doesn't get much ink. The book is in part about Trumpism and the transcendent threats to democracy and equal dignity that he represents. But, if Trump went away tomorrow, those forces would still exist. That's an important theme of the book.

Mike Rhode: I think a lot of Trumpism actually has an economic underpinning too, as people are feeling like they're losing out on the American dream, and I think those people have been voting Republicans since Ronald Reagan was elected, which is absolutely amazing to me. Do you address that type of inequity in the books? I know you can't fit in everything.

Alan Jenkins: We do a bit. It's true that the United States was never the land of full and equal opportunity that it aspired to be, but we, at our best, have been headed in the right direction. And right now, we're headed in the wrong direction. We're less and less equal, and everyday people have less and less opportunity. And we do take that up because, to your point, that is ripe for exploitation. We know that the reasons for that have to do with laws and policies that favor the rich and suppress for instance, union organizing and other efforts. But it's very easy to blame immigrants, or people of color, and there are always going be demagogues that are going to do that.

Mike Rhode: When you come from people who have worked their way up the ladder in America, it's hard to understand the people that think that immigrants are their problem, or unions are their problem because, if you know any American history, the five-day work week was not a gift from the gods.  The Food and Drug Administration didn't magically appear one day. People had to be poisoned by corporations giving them adulterated food, and to see people turn their backs on progressivism in favor of a different type of populism has been very, very strange for my entire adult life.

Alan Jenkins: I find it baffling but also something that we have to constantly work to combat. I went to law school with Barack Obama. If anybody had asked me, “Is there anyone you know who's likely to be the first black president?” I certainly would've said Barack Obama. If somebody had asked me would that happen in 2008, I would've said, “Absolutely not.” But he is a remarkable person who was able to channel our greatest values and inspire people, majority of the electorate, to vote those values. And so we know it can be done.

Mike Rhode: Unfortunately, he became a face that people could oppose, and I think a lot of that coalesced because he was the president, not because of him personally, but just because he was a black man as president. It could have been a woman who was president and the same thing would've happened. Or an Indian-American or anybody who wasn’t a white man.

Getting back on track did the Covid 19 outbreak affect you personally or professionally?

Alan Jenkins: It did both. I was fortunate that I didn't lose any close family or friends, but did lose some people in our orbit and actually a close friend I have who was one of the first people in New York to get the virus has not fully recovered. My mom was in assisted living and so we had to visit her through the window. I was fortunate that she was on the ground floor. And we were able to interact with her. The aides, God bless 'em, would bring her to the window and open the screen and in the dead of winter we were out there. And then, professionally I was teaching and so I taught an entire academic year online on Zoom which is a terrible way to teach or learn. We adapted to it, and I think, well, and the students certainly stepped up, but it was very difficult for them. And the law school experience is not just the classes, it's not just the readings and the conversation. It's the people you interact with. It's the school, the activities that you do. I met my wife in law school, I would not have met her on Zoom. I really feel like they missed out. Many people lost much, much more than we did, and I feel very fortunate. It was a very difficult period for all of us.

Mike Rhode: Is there anything else you'd like to close with?

Alan Jenkins: I hope that your readers will check out the book, and that they will ask their local comic book stores for it. But it's also on Amazon and at http://onesixcomicsstore.com. And I hope they'll check out the Action guide, which is free online and consider the things that they can do. One of the things that we've talked to some readers about is a democracy comic book reading group to read some relevant comic books, for instance, X-Men: Days of Future Past—it’s a “what if” speculative fiction story about democracy and bigotry—and to actually read that series, which is so good. To talk about, “what does it mean for us today? What are the real things that are depicted? What are the metaphors?” The mutants have always been a metaphor for so many things, for sexual and gender identity, for race. So that's one maybe concrete suggestion. And reach out. Let us know how you're using it.

This interview is being published simultaneously on ComicsDC and IJOCA's blogs, and will appear in print in the 25:1 issue of IJOCA.